Mental Health Applications:   A Panel Discussion


San Francisco, California; New York, New York;

Poseidia Institute, Virginia Beach, Virginia; Cambridge, Massachusetts;

The Center for Individual and Family Services, Mansfield, Ohio

 Editor’s Note: This panel discussion includes the following presentations:

• Judith Malamud: Interaction With Inner Wisdom Figures

• Jean Campbell: A Therapist Dreams With a Client

• Ann Sayre Wiseman: Lucidity and the Language of Imagery

• Gordon Halliday: Clinical Utility Seen in Lucid Dream Ability

• Patricia Garfield: When and For Whom Is Lucidity Appropriate?

Garfield: We turn now to the application of the technique of lucid dreaming. We’ve looked at a lot of ways to induce lucidity, we’ve seen what it’s composed of phys-iologically. But, what can it do for us? What’s the point? Suppose we can produce this state at will; will that make any difference in our lives? And if so, how? What we’re going to consider now is the viewpoint of our different distinguished panelists. We have Jean Campbell, Judy Malamud, Ann Wiseman and Gordon Halliday. I’ll tell you a little bit about each of them before they make their comments and then we’ll consider together different aspects of the value of lucid dreaming.

Judith Malamud: Interaction With Inner Wisdom Figures

Garfield: Judy is a psychologist from New York City who practices psychotherapy; she leads dream and lucidity workshops. In 1979 she completed her doctoral disser-tation on lucid dreaming.

Malamud: Let me tell you how I first started to get interested in lucidity. Ever since I was a teenager in college and was learning about dreams in courses, it seemed to me there was something really weird and self-alienating about waking up from a dream and then using a symbol system, Freudian symbolism, to translate the im-ages, as if I were translating a foreign language. I knew I was creating my dreams myself, that I was expressing myself through dreaming, so I wondered why I had to consult some system of dream symbolism in order to understand what I, myself, meant to express. I know what I mean to express when I’m awake or when I’m talk-ing to you, so why don’t I know what I mean to express when I’m dreaming, which is when I’m really talking about the most personal, meaningful aspects of myself? I wanted to get in touch with that side of myself that creates dreams, so that I could become unified within myself.

When the time came to do my doctoral dissertation, I read Patricia Garfield’s book, Creative Dreaming, and thought, "Why not put dreaming to constructive use? Why let this time to go to waste? Maybe there can be actual constructive personality change within the dream itself." So I began working with pilot subjects, instructing them to perform various "positive" behaviors in their dreams, like the "Senoi" tech-niques for confronting and conquering danger, exploring mysterious situations, bring back treasures [Editor’s Note: Although this solution is less than satisfying, we are enclosing "Senoi" in quotes in this paper to indicate the Western traditions that paradoxically evolved out of Kilton Stewart’s anthropological work. This usage is meant to differentiate American and European so-called "Senoi" dream control from the traditional dream theory and practice of Malaysian Senoi peoples as stud-ied and described by anthropologists like Dentan and Domhoff as well as dream-workers Faraday and Wren-Lewis. See the History section of this issue of Lucidity for views endorsed by most anthropologists.] —until I encountered one pilot sub-ject who was frank enough to tell me, "Judy, I know you’re right that I should do these things, but I really don’t like being told what I should do in my dreams." I realized she had a point. Who was I to tell her what is good, positive, constructive dream behavior?

At that point, my interest in lucidity increased, because I realized that the lucid dream state is a state which is inherently totally free and totally safe and therefore permits one to be maximally creative in whatever way one wishes. I figured I’d change my approach. My new approach would be to teach people to become aware that they’re dreaming and aware of the implications of the fact that they’re dream-ing. I would teach them that they the are the ones creating everything that goes on in dreams, that everything in the environment reflects aspects of their own thoughts, feelings, wishes, or perceptions of the world, and that the dream state is an alternate reality. The dream world is not the concrete world, which means that the physical body cannot be hurt by what goes on in the dream. Dreamers can do things in a dream that no one will know about in waking life unless they tell, after waking up. The dream state can become an arena for trying out or discovering what your inner wishes and fantasies might be. You can sleep with people that it would be totally unacceptable to do that with in waking life, and discover what pleases you in a safe, private environment.

Recently, I’ve been developing ways of teaching people to get in touch with the side of themselves that uses dream language. For example, I have people practice correlating their feelings and wishes with waking imagery, to familiarize them with how they naturally use imagery for self-expression. I also teach people to become aware of the implications of the fact that they’re dreaming. I feel that it’s not enough, for therapeutic purposes, merely to know you’re dreaming, because—so what? What you really need to know is that you’re creating the dream, you’re safe, the dream world reflects yourself, and therefore, you can learn about yourself.

The most recent development in my life has been—I’m sure Jean will talk more about this kind of phenomenon—getting in touch with an inner wisdom figure who has been communicating with me mentally, and has even told me, "Judy, you’re worried about what you’re going to say on this panel. Don’t worry about it. I’ll write your position paper for you." She’s trying to teach me to be lucid in waking life. Being lucid in waking life means being aware of the extent to which you are con-tributing to creating what’s going on, and being aware that what you perceive some-how reflects your own wishes, thoughts, feelings, etc. Waking lucidity is realizing that there are always alternative possibilities. Just as in a dream, there are many alternative possibilities that you can choose among, and so there’s this kind of freedom in waking life as well.

Let me read you a brief section of my inner wisdom figure’s position paper. Her name is Role Model. She said:

Once upon a time, there were few people who understood that dreams reflected their outlook on life. Freud changed all that. Now, everyone and his brother interprets dreams and purports to understand dreams. What they don’t yet realize is this: Morsels of knowledge about the self are not enough to uproot the fundamental fallacy of human existence, which is that we are victims of reality rather than its creators.

By the way, I don’t know that I agree with everything she says. She’s rather radical. [Role Model’s position paper continues:]

The victim posture has been a useful one for humankind for millenia, but this is be-ginning to change. Lucidity is the fastest way to undo the fundamental error. It is better not to understand too much before one has gained the benefits of error, hence dreams are not ordinarily lucid. The struggle to become lucid represents a first step toward willing-ness to see into the power of one’s true nature. Fortunately, there is no harm in delaying knowledge or wisdom. They come by themselves to everyone, in time. But the clinical use of techniques for becoming lucid in dreams promised to speed up that process of gaining self-knowledge, for those who are in a hurry.

Garfield: We’ve seen here the values of lucid dreaming as experienced by Judy: a sense of freedom, of an environment to test out different possibilities, of a safe place to make discoveries and of a place to get in touch with wisdom—that’s very precious, no matter what his or her name is.

Jean Campbell: A Therapist Dreams With a Client

Garfield: Jean Campbell is director of Poseidia Institute, an institute in Virginia Beach. She’s the author of a book called Dreams Beyond Dreaming and she has been actively conducting dream research, particularly along the lines of dreams as an altered state of consciousness, for the last 12 years. Her current research project is called "Dreams to the Tenth Power."

Campbell: I’m not a psychologist, I’m a parapsychologist and Poseidia Institute is a parapsychology research organization. What that means is that the bulk of my re-search has been in dreams as an altered state of consciousness, that is, looking at consciousness as a continuum from waking state to a whole variety of other states, dreams being only one of them, and lucid dreaming being part of that continuum of consciousness.

Recently we have been doing some research called "Dreams to the Tenth Pow-er," which is a study in group dreaming. That is, not only is it possible to have people dream lucidly, but is it possible to control the dream state? Is it possible to have people dream simultaneously, dream together, dream on some regular basis with each other? There are a lot of people by this time who appear to be proving that that might be true. That is, if we decide as a group that we want to dream tonight, together, pick a place, pick a time, and see what happens. We could do it. We’ve tried this with people who are not regular lucid dreamers and people who are regular lucid dreamers.

Since that is not really the subject of this panel, I don’t want to go any further with that except to say that although I am not a counselor myself, we do counseling at Poseidia. I have seen what looks to me like one of the most beneficial uses of lu-cid dreaming or lucidity in therapy in the past few months. That is, one of the ther-apists who works through Poseidia Institute, in addition to doing some work with clients in terms of dreaming with each other, had a client who had a particularly difficult problem with nightmares. The client would only fragmentarily remember the nightmare but knew that it was tremendously traumatic. What the therapist did, having already been trained in lucidity, was dream with the client.

She first dreamed the dream as the client was having the dream, that is, she saw the dream through the client’s eyes, while she was asleep. Then she proceeded, be-cause she knew she was asleep, to see the dream from her own perspective. That is, from her own clinical perspective. What this gave her was insight into, or awareness of, the client’s dream. It gave her awareness of how to cope with the dream and then in the next counseling session she was able to work with the client with the dream content and get through what the nightmare was and how to deal with it. This I see as only one aspect of what lucidity is able to do for all of us. Since we’re not all therapists, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we’ll be doing that particular kind of thing, but being lucid, being able to draw on all of our capabilities, all of the aware-ness that are available to us in lucidity, certainly seems to me to be a marvelous thing to have.

Garfield: Assuming that it is possible for a group of people to simultaneously dream together, what would you see as being the benefit of that?

Campbell: Let’s see. Say we (signifying the panel) had a problem, and say that at a waking level we, for our own anxiety reasons, wanted to keep a lot back. The rules are different in the dream state. We allow ourselves different things in the dream state. Like Judy was saying, you can sleep with a lot of different people in the dream state. I’m not suggesting that that’s what we would do with the problem. However, say that we decided as a group to dream together. I’m not saying that we would have to be lucid, but certainly being lucid would be of some use. That is, being aware that we were dreaming together might be of some value to us. But, because the rules are different in the dream state, if our problem was that we had a problem together, but we happened to live and be at home in California, and New York, and Virginia Beach, it’s a great way to call a conference. It costs less than the telephone and allows you to solve some things.

Ann Sayre Wiseman: Lucidity and the Language of Imagery

Garfield: Ann Sayre Wiseman is an artist and therapist working with dreams and art in psychotherapy at the Arts Institute of Expressive Therapy at Lesley College in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Her particular focus is an interesting concept based on finding the image of a problem and satisfying it. It locates the style of dialogue need-ed to negotiate self empowering strategies for integration and rebalancing opposing forces inside us. Ann, let’s hear more about that.

Wiseman: We’ve been talking about lucid dreaming. I think what I’m teaching and practicing could be called lucid waking, for lack of a better name. It is similar, it taps the same wave length that is tapped while dreaming but you can, by closing your eyes and going deep inside, tap it in the waking state too. It is the source of imag-ining and picture language that produce dreams and that mirror our feelings.

Since imagery is the picture language, I use a lot of art, and torn paper collage as a medium to restage a dream and work it through to satisfaction. We make a col-lage map of a dream or a problem, a situation or even an illness, whatever the issue is. Then, using closed eye imaging, we invite more information from this lucid source which our dreams have access to. A kind of meditation.

When I was three years old I experienced this lucid awareness on a night trip that acquainted me with my pre-body essence. I had fragments of this dream throughout childhood. It was dynamic elements surpassing the limits of a dream.

I flew through the universe and contacted all the elements, saw color in every aspect of its spectrum, and woke from it with the "why of life" question, and always in my mouth I tasted rust (which of course, is very similar to the taste of blood, which made me think it was a birth dream). This flight changed from limitless boundaries to the confines of my own mo-mentum as I came into a sort of spiraling pattern—the way water begins to spiral down a spout after the plug is out. As my essence drew near the center the rotations quickened and the colors pulled more pigment out of the developing speed, until I began to drown in black lava which ultimately exploded from suffocation. I’d always wake with the taste of rust in my mouth and the "why of life" question. I woke more astonished than frightened. Astonished to find I could breathe and had landed safely.

This recurring revelation has made me believe that probably children know all there is to know from the very start of conception but after entering the human form it takes them a lifetime to become reacquainted with this essence awareness. Guided imagery is very close to it. At least it opens some of the unexercised passages or wave lengths which our culture doesn’t tap very often.

I had another lucid experience at Esalen while doing a work-study program.

I was weeding and clearing land and was sent out onto the cliff alone to turn earth for a new garden. I stood looking out over the vast Pacific and asked the universe, "Why do I think everyone knows more than I do?" and the universe replied, "Because you refuse to take re-sponsibility for what you know." There again, it sounded like the same message only this time I understood it because it was given me in words.

Then about eight years ago, when I started working, training in psychotherapy, Gestalt and Psychosynthesis, I realized art was the language of imagery and feeling and I had a fantastic clarification dream. Again the universe spoke to me. I was like a tiny ant sticking out of the side of the earth and a giant megaphone in the outer space shouted, "Find the image and satisfy it!" No matter what issue we’re working on, it works.

I use this as a guide. It is the basis of my work. The same with problem solving and dream paradoxes. I think it’s absolutely amazing. I wish I had time to share some stories. I will talk abut one piece of art since no one is celebrating art here and it is so important, such a quick helper.

This story is about the successful birth of a threatened baby. The mother was a student in one of my workshops. She was six months pregnant. During this training in working with dreams and self-balancing each student’s body was outlined so they could step outside their body and contemplate the space they took up in the universe.

Then I lead them on a guided trip inside the body to understand what was going on inside, to see how we treat our bodies and observe where strength and blockages are, where creativity is located and dialogue with organs that are complaining or dis-satisfied. Then all this new information is drawn into the body outline so we can see it and acknowledge what it’s like to live inside this state. Then we spend the rest of the week working out dialogues and negotiating changes that create a fairer balance, a new commitment to our bodies, more agreement, more cooperation, new align-ment. For many it is symbolic surgery and dynamic healing can occur. Divorced organs can get reintegrated and the inner child can find a nurturing home at last.

Well, this young mother-to-be found she had three heavy chains binding her body, restraining all action and flow of energy to her arms and legs so she’d become numb. One chain around her diaphragm was constricting the growth of her baby who said, during its dialogue with her, that it was on the verge of suffocation. On her body map she had no mouth and her throat was full of stones (30, one for each of her years), and blocking the birth canal was an "iron vise." Using closed eye imaging she asked the body where to begin and her body said, "First, you need to open my eyes." Please note that only "the self" knows the proper sequence for healing or change. The therapist can only guess and guide and give the power back to the client. I asked her to dialogue with the stones. They were "pellets of anger" which she’d never dared deliver to her father because no one in the family was allowed to oppose her father, who was a survivor of a childhood in the Holocaust death camps. His power over the family, especially his daughter, was supreme. As she was not ready to deliver the stones, she agreed to remove them from her esophagus and keep them at hand until she found words for them, for which she needed a lot more time. In the meantime, she agreed to develop her voice so it could be heard. To undo the numbness she had to drop the shoulder chain, which her body reminded her she could only do if she could remember how to relax. The sequence that led to relaxa-tion was a marvelous detour to Japan, where she remembered she’d last experienced relaxation in the hot tubs. Again, using suggestion, she returned to the source and satisfied the image of numbness. The chain was willing to drop off after the heat activated the immobile arms and legs so she could defend her baby with them.

The sequence goes on and on and each repair was added to this body map until she was in charge of her body. The chain around the diaphragm was a very complex detour that involved demanding the key to the lock from her father, who was used to having everything his way, who it turned out, "owned" her baby and her husband as well as her sexual freedom. I’m telling you this briefly today because she called me before I set out for this conference to say that this baby was successfully born. She was able to dilate only by sitting in a hot shower which she insisted on doing against her doctor’s commands. She had refused to let him take the baby by Caesarian sec-tion. She insisted on a hot shower so she could let herself relax and dilate. I wonder how many doctors understand that their patients are the only ones who know the proper sequence of things that must happen before willingness to deliver, heal or change can begin. Lucid awareness is inside us all and we here are the believers, therefore we must be the teachers. Find the image and satisfy it.

Garfield: That’s a very interesting case. We see here then another possible value, in this case in a kind of lucid waking dream. The "dreamer" drew on the wisdom that comes from within and got actual physiological help in achieving important biolog-ical processes that she might not have and without this kind of self-reflection. Great!

Gordon Halliday: Clinical Utility Seen in Lucid Dream Ability

Garfield: And, finally we hear from Gordon Halliday who is a psychologist working with a community mental health center in Ohio.

Halliday: I’d like to touch on three areas where I’ve used lucid dreaming in a thera-peutic setting. First is for folks with a specific problem of not being able to tell when they’re awake or dreaming. Second, for people with nightmares, particularly recur-ring traumatic nightmares. Third, for individuals who feel absolutely powerless to make any change in their lives. If they make one change anywhere you get a snow-balling effect, and the potential of lucidity is at least one potential that some people can use to start making that one change. I’ll comment more on that later.

Shortly after Hearne’s list of ten criteria for distinguishing the dreaming state from the wakeful state was published in the May 19, 1982 issue of Lucidity Letter, I had a client who came in for hypnotherapy for weight loss. As part of the initial interview, she mentioned she still had problems telling whether she was awake or dreaming. She had been in therapy about a year previously at the mental health cen-ter where I saw her. Her previous therapist said something like, "Grow up, everyone can do that" (distinguish dreams from waking). The therapist’s idea, perhaps, was that this confusion is a fairly normal impasse, occurring at perhaps age five, which most children get through. That is one of the jobs of parents, to help kids separate when they’re awake and when they’re asleep. My client didn’t and it caused her problems, particularly in her social life. She didn’t know, for example, if the conver-sation she had with somebody yesterday occurred in a dream, or occurred when she was awake. If she thought it occurred in a dream (when it really occurred when awake), naturally she wouldn’t continue it and people would get hostile and say, "Why are you snubbing me?" If it actually occurred in a dream but she thought it occurred in the awake state, she would try to continue the conversation but people would look at her and say, "What are you talking about?"

She was a factory worker who was doing pretty well in other areas of her life but she found that this inability to distinguish dreams from reality caused her some difficulty. She was therefore open to some answers to rectify this situation. As part of our second session with this client, we reviewed with her Hearne’s ten tests for differentiating the dream from the waking state. We gave her a copy of these tests and suggested she review them at home from time to time.

One week later she came back and said she had had a dream and she used one of the criteria (to look carefully at the surroundings and see if there is something that should not be there) to know that it was a dream. That was helpful for her; when she encountered a three- or four-foot rat at her factory, she knew that that was a dream because the Orkin man [exterminator] had been around the previous day and there shouldn’t be any rats at all. It didn’t strike her as strange that the rat was three feet tall. She was very pleased with those results. I’ve had another client since then who has also used Hearne’s criteria and also found them helpful.

The second place where lucidity training has been useful is in traumatic night-mares, with the idea that it’s possible to make a change. Somebody in the audience mentioned Vietnam veterans. I haven’t worked much with Vietnam veterans but one of my colleagues worked extensively with them. I mentioned to him the technique of becoming first aware that you’re dreaming and then making a small change. One of his clients who was a Vietnam veteran had a recurring nightmare of being on a boat exposed to lots of machine-gun fire, and there was nothing he could do. So he was encouraged first to make himself become aware that he was dreaming and then make a small change in the dream. He was encouraged, rather than going for the "biggies," i.e., dream content stuff with a lot of emotion, to change the color of some of the bushes, change the type of boat, etc. The client found that method marvelous, and as often happens, as soon as he made a small change, the nightmare ended. So this didn’t result in a continued lucid state but at least it resulted in control of the dream and in this case ending the nightmare.

This case was similar to a case that I had with a fellow who had been run over by a tractor about a year before I saw him (this case was published in Perceptual and Motor Skills, 1982, 54, 413–414). He was seen in a hospital on consultation for sev-eral reasons. He mentioned that he had nightmares about two or three times a week which replayed the traumatic experience. We encouraged him to become aware of the fact that he was dreaming. Some folks just pick up the idea and run with it once you tell them it its possible. He did that. When we encouraged him to make a small change, his nightmare ended. He then found himself in a pleasant dream, the first one he had in over a year, which was dancing with his wife.

There are some limitations to this technique. For instance, a person was in an industrial accident. He complained of recurrent traumatic nightmares where once again he was on the barge and the factory along the river released the toxic gas which caused his choking and inability to breathe. He woke up very upset. What he wanted was Valium. He simply wasn’t willing to consider other alternatives such as lucidity training or keeping a gas mask around!

Similarly, in another case, a fellow who was seen for disability evaluation had a recurring traumatic nightmare concerning his fall from a factory ceiling. He pointed out that he understood how lucidity training could change his nightmare but his disability payments were so important to him that he didn’t want to change any-thing that could remotely affect getting disability!

Another class of cases where lucidity training with change instructions has not worked is with those who believe that dreams form a special source of knowledge, particularly prophetic. It is upsetting to these individuals for them to try to change a dream or try to say they are in control of a dream as they felt that dreams are a direct expression of the spirit or of God. One such case was a woman who had married the pastor of a fundamentalist church. She had worked hard at her strict religious beliefs. She didn’t allow television watching because that was "of the world." Her children weren’t allowed to play football because that was "of the world." One was supposed to spend all of one’s time contemplating the other world and being dutiful. There was, however, one exception. If she had a prophetic dream, coming not from her but from God, instructing her to be lenient about some church rules, her husband had no choice but to grant her wishes. She was extremely reluctant to even consider that dreams could be lucid or even, for that matter, that they come from the unconscious.

Finally, the third use of lucidity is to empower people to make changes. One client had the presenting problem of "being in a daze." She had been in a daze for a number of years. For many years she had been extensively abused both physically and sexually by her father and others. She had a mild mental retardation diagnosis, was divorced, had lost her children to Children’s Services, and was in a bad relation-ship with her boy friend. Because of her childhood abuse, she was terrified of men. She nevertheless wanted to dance with her boy friend. We tried to work out a de-conditioning situation in which she gradually got within a foot of a man and then gradually touched him, etc. She never really got involved with that procedure. We talked about her frequent nightmares and suggested that she try to confront and conquer them. She liked that idea, despite not having any prior experience with it, and reported at her fourth session a nightmare of a hand that was trying to choke her and kill some pets. To her surprise she knew that she could make a change in the dream. She took a baseball bat and beat the hand to death, which was very unlike her waking behavior. It was, she said, "the first time I fought back." She was thrilled with that and subsequently had the determination to successfully dance with her boy friend. Hartmann (The Nightmare, 1984, p. 223) and some others suggest that the change comes first in the personality and then the dream changes, but for this partic-ular patient the nice dream clearly came first. She also did four or five other positive things like watch less television and take walks. Five months after this dream she was still doing relatively well. She was free of nightmares, a situation which she at-tributed to thinking good things—rather than upsetting things—prior to sleep.

Patricia Garfield: When and For Whom Is Lucidity Appropriate? P

Garfield: Gordon has added some things for us to consider. We’ve already men-tioned a lot of the values of lucid dreaming, provided the skill is developed, but also we need to consider what is the appropriate population for lucid dreaming. Gordon has just mentioned three cases where it doesn’t apply, people who are getting secon-dary benefits from their "nonlucid" dreams, such as receiving disability payments or controlling your husband. It then becomes difficult if not impossible to interest them in the idea of lucid dreaming.

We might also consider, is lucidity just for us normals versus neurotics? Can lucid dream training be used with a psychotic individual? Can it be used with chil-dren equally as well as with adults?

Assuming you can make a difference, we also need to look at what specifically are the desirable responses in a lucid dream. Some have been suggested and Gordon just added another. Just make a small change, don’t go for the "biggie"; just change the color of the boat. Begin little.

Is it best to confront a hostile dream figure—and one can confront just by say-ing, "Hey, cut it out" or staring into their eyes or resisting or demolishing them completely with a baseball bat? Is that better, in some instances, than getting help? Or should one befriend a hostile dream figure, or integrate with a dream figure? There are many options we can take. Some people take sides, "This is no good, this is the only right way to do it." I wonder if there aren’t specific occasions where specific things are called for, depending on the circumstances of the dreamer. I’d be interested in the panel’s thoughts on this.


Malamud: I’d like to comment on that last question about what’s appropriate to do in a dream. This is a personal value: what’s appropriate to do in a dream is what makes you happy, and that’s what I try to teach people to do in their lucid dreams or in their lucid fantasies. I work mostly with teaching people to be lucid in their fantasies.

I think there are differences in the degree to which certain actions can be called lucid. For example, those who choose to counterattack a dream enemy are lucid per-haps to the extent that they realize that they are dreaming, but they’re not realizing an important implication of that fact, that is, they’re safe; there’s no way that their physical body can be harmed by this image. In order to become more lucid, they have to realize that there’s no need to counterattack. I have found, in working with a couple of my dissertation subjects—I had six subjects that I worked with intensive-ly—that the stage of counterattack was a useful one for learning that you really are safe! In other words, it seemed the subjects had to learn that they had power in the dream, that they could control things, that they could defend themselves and go through the phase of counterattack enough to really realize they were safe and that defense was not necessary. Then the next phase would be friendly encounter: "Who are you? What can you tell me about myself?" But that didn’t happen until they got over being afraid. If you keep in mind that the enemy dream image is a reflection of some aspect of self, then defending against it is also a process of learning, "I’m not going to be overwhelmed; I can keep this aspect of myself under control." Once it’s under control, "Okay, now I’ll talk to you; now I’ll find out who you are and what you have to teach me."

Garfield: We might postulate a developmental situation. Paul Tholey’s work on comparing different types of responses to a hostile dream figure is very interesting. He feels that a conciliatory behavior is most effective. But I noted that he used con-ciliation after he had used a lot of confronting.

Wiseman: I think that it’s very important that the victim reconnect with that fear after making himself safe now that he has empowered himself. The enemy often reflects a polarized position in oneself. Therapy can help people modify. Most of us are just "either/or," we don’t automatically exercise the options in the middle.

Garfield: I think that one of the things that we need to work out as explorers in this dream field is this very kind of thing. Do we need the power? I would say, yes. This is my own personal bias, so I’m not really sure if I’m right or not, but it’s what works for me. I think that there are stages beyond that are important to move to, including integration with whatever figure you need to have. Paul Tholey’s work is important and is moving in the direction of making sense out of this question. How do we build a hierarchy? How do we make these choices?

Campbell: I’d like to respond. I’ve not only worked with a lot of groups of people in the area of lucidity, but for a couple of years we did a call-in radio talk show, with groups of people talking about lucidity with each other. I don’t think there is an ap-propriate group. I don’t think that it’s a judgment that I feel comfortable making for somebody else. That is, I feel that the powers, or the word that we’ve been using here—personal powers, ability of the individual to be creative or whatever—I think it’s something that is inherent. We traditionally have not looked at it, not allowed ourselves. As you were saying, children have appeared to have the ability. I was teaching a high school class once and mentioned the idea of lucidity. I was grading papers the next day and one of the kids came in and said, "It works."

I said, "What works?"

She said, "I looked at my hands and it works just fine." No trying to learn how to be lucid or anything. Just a matter of very natural "working." Although I think there’s usefulness in support, and if you’re talking about people who are psychotic or people who are very afraid, there’s a need for support groups. I don’t think it’s necessary to limit who can do these dream techniques.

Audience Question: Would you see the use of such techniques as coming from one’s personal interest in the topic, or could it be used with any group?

Campbell: With the radio show God knows who was listening in at any particular time, or what kind of people they were, but I know they were excited. In the hour in which we dealt with dreams and lucidity the phones were all lit up.

I’d like to give some speculations on the personal use of lucid dream tech-niques. I haven’t worked with enough people to be able to really know, but I would think that readiness for lucidity and the ability to benefit from lucidity would cut across these categories of normals, neurotics, psychotics, children, and adults. I agree that what would be essential is wanting the lucid attitude. That is, wanting to be aware of your power to create reality. Wanting to know yourself better by recog-nizing yourself as you’re reflected in what you experience around you. Wanting to feel that you have freedom. We all, to some extent, want to hide from what we create, from the fact that we do have input into our situations. We want to hide from who we are and can be terrified by facing some aspects of ourselves. Often, para-doxically, we want to feel that we have no choice, that situations are forced on us. In my experience working with people, I’ve found that those are the kinds of obstacles you come up against. If you focus on those three aspects of lucidity, people become very aware of what their resistances are and become more free and more aware of their power.

Garfield: That’s all the time we have today for touching on these issues but they are definitely ones to take home with us from the conference and to use in our own settings. Those of you who have read Theodore Roszak’s The Dream Watcher, per-haps got a flash as some of these people were talking. He proposes that dreaming can go a long way and that it can really change the world.

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